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| What is the meaning of life? |
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| Life has no meaning. Only machines matter on a cosmic scale. |
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| Total Votes : 21 |
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Izzhov
is not something that you just dump something on
Joined: 05 Oct 2007
Posts: 5543
Location: Meaningless Island
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 Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Tommy wrote: | Yes, because if all NDEs are vivid dreams why are they so similar. Why does no one have an NDE where they become a ninja, or live in a castle of cheese like normal dreams. Plus what happened to Ian seems to be of too much coincidence for his brain to have made it up-his mother got up at midnight to pray the exact time he was in the ambulance. But people love to explain with science things they don't fully understand. I remember someone saying earlier in this thread that evolution and the big bang had practically all been explained by science. Not even close! There are massive holes in those theories. But as somethings can be proved, scientists adopt the basic models or ideas as they are scientists-that's how they work. And nobody fully knows how the brain works.
Anyway, go back to my previous post about the vicar and you'll see why I believe even though I'd say I was a fairly skeptical person. Obviously not everyone is telling the truth-some are probably trying to make money, but the basic principles are there. |
Let me ask you this: if a person can replicate an NDE in a centrifuge (i.e. a controlled environment), does that mean that person controls God, to some extent?
I'm going to assume your reply will be, "Of course not!" If it isn't, please correct me. But, assuming that will be your reply, the point I'm making is that one should never use what one perceives to back up one's religion. The problem with it is that, whenever science shows something that goes against someone's religion, that person will tend to say that "science has nothing to do with it." But then, why are you trying to use perception and logic to verify your religion/beliefs in the first place? The point is, you shouldn't. Religion/faith and science/logic are things which should stay separate, if only for the fact that they have completely different purposes. Logic is simply a tool we use to use what we perceive to our advantage (in the case of machines, etcetera), or something we use for fun (e.g. people finding learning about various things interesting, video games, and so on). Religion, on the other hand, attempts to answer deep philosophical, moral (I'm still a little unsure on the issue of ethics at the moment though), and existential questions about us. When you try to apply one to the other (by using science to disprove/verify religion), things get both messy and silly.
I recommend this book if you want to understand my viewpoint a little better: Rocks of Ages, by Stephen Jay Gould. Although I disagree with some of the ways Gould states things, I think it sums up my viewpoint pretty well.
EDIT: just one attempt at clarifying my viewpoint: I think science/perception/logic is really nothing more than a tool, which is why it has nothing to do with the actual truth (which may be defined by one's faith/religion/etcetera). |
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Tommy
is rapidly attaining fiery deathytude
Joined: 27 Jun 2007
Posts: 1595
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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No, you can't prove religion by science but I'm making it clear that neither can you disprove it. I suppose we have been through this before but if God is a real entity that he absolutely has a real impact on your everyday life, which is why it's important to discuss it. You don't say "God, I'm going to school to learn science. It's not compatible with you, so just stay at home and when I get back we'll have an arty philosophical discussion that means nothing in practical terms for my life."
If there was 100% no evidence for God then why would anyone intelligent believe? And evidence includes perception and reasoning.
There are many questions I don't know and things to suggest that God doesn't exist, but I've weighed that up against the stuff that suggests he does and made a decision.
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dPaladin
is rapidly attaining fiery deathytude
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 1706
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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If only God could give me some sort of sign, like a large deposit in my Swiss bank account.
I actually had a pretty lengthy rebuttal typed out, but I accidentally hit CTRL-W, which apparently closes the tab in Firefox. I'm going to chalk it up to an act of God and mosey on out of the thread for awhile.
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dude look at this signature |
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Izzhov
is not something that you just dump something on
Joined: 05 Oct 2007
Posts: 5543
Location: Meaningless Island
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Tommy wrote: | No, you can't prove religion by science but I'm making it clear that neither can you disprove it. I suppose we have been through this before but if God is a real entity that he absolutely has a real impact on your everyday life, which is why it's important to discuss it. You don't say "God, I'm going to school to learn science. It's not compatible with you, so just stay at home and when I get back we'll have an arty philosophical discussion that means nothing in practical terms for my life."
If there was 100% no evidence for God then why would anyone intelligent believe? And evidence includes perception and reasoning. |
Because said intelligent people realize that truth may not have anything to do with perception in the first place, and that they are going to have faith no matter what. I thought you religious types were big on faith. Certainly, though, if you believe in God, He must play a role in your life, and a positive one at that. God could help you through hard times, e.g. when you pray to Him when you're sick. Or God could help lift your spirits when you're feeling down, e.g. if something you perceive not to be fair has just happened, such as a friend died, you can find solace in the fact that everything will work out in the end as a result of His divine plan. Or even, though this is where I'm most sketchy, and I hesitate to include this, one could turn to God for advice on a moral quandry that one is really unsure what to do about.
But there's a difference between those things and applying God to logic and science (or vice versa). For example, the person in the first case shouldn't rely solely on his/her faith to cure whatever illness he/she has; that person should also seek medical assistance. (This is why most reasonable people dislike/reject the idea of Scientology, which is essentially my concept of what shouldn't do—mix science and religion—taken way too far.) The person in the second scenario shouldn't believe that praying to God will bring his/her friend back to life. Of course, one may use philosophical reasoning to verify one's faith (which I've seen in most theological discussions), but science is a tool with completely different applications than religion and faith.
EDIT: @dP: man, that sucks. But did you know: in Opera, you can salvage any closed tab from the "trash," and the page will have whatever you were typing still on it? It has saved several long posts of mine in the past whose tabs I accidentally deleted before I was finished. Just a thought.
Last edited by Izzhov on Sun Feb 03, 2008 3:46 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Tommy
is rapidly attaining fiery deathytude
Joined: 27 Jun 2007
Posts: 1595
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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Actually I'm starting to regret posting again as I don't like arguing. I mean there's so many ways it can go. For example: you might say "Aha! You're tired of arguing because you don't have a proper answer!" and I'd say "No, because this post right now proves that I don't just quit when I can't think of anything as it was written in a moment of non-arguing." and you could say "Well, that was just a crafty pre-emptive strike." etc. etc.
Because of my personality I don't like my view to go un-defended but neither does the other person so arguments can go on forever. I'm tired.
Edit: This was actually written before Izzhov's post. I guess you're right but the grey areas about the relationship between religion and science pretty complicated. Anyway, one thing I will say (which isn't really related) is that it's important to get the difference between 'religious people' and those who are trying to be the most loving people they can because of whatever beliefs they have. Because 'religion' and 'religious people' can often be, you know, twats.
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I know who's actually to blame, but we need those guys for sports. |
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Izzhov
is not something that you just dump something on
Joined: 05 Oct 2007
Posts: 5543
Location: Meaningless Island
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Tommy wrote: | Actually I'm starting to regret posting again as I don't like arguing. I mean there's so many ways it can go. For example: you might say "Aha! You're tired of arguing because you don't have a proper answer!" and I'd say "No, because this post right now proves that I don't just quit when I can't think of anything as it was written in a moment of non-arguing." and you could say "Well, that was just a crafty pre-emptive strike." etc. etc.
Because of my personality I don't like my view to go un-defended but neither does the other person so arguments can go on forever. I'm tired. |
I wouldn't have responded that way if that was how you posted. In fact, I encourage people who are arguing to stop and think about everything for awhile (or even to just rest up) before things get too high-tempered. This is why I could never be on a debate team. Also because I tend to actually end up agreeing with the other person on certain points, like how God actually does play a practical (though non-scientific) role in religious people's lives. The problem with debate teams is that people get so wrapped up in the heat of the moment that they forget why they're arguing in the first place. They forget to think.
So... yeah. Go rest, Tommy. Then think. Then... maybe you can respond. I believe I'll do the same thing myself.
EDIT:
| Tommy wrote: | | Edit: This was actually written before Izzhov's post. I guess you're right but the grey areas about the relationship between religion and science pretty complicated. Anyway, one thing I will say (which isn't really related) is that it's important to get the difference between 'religious people' and those who are trying to be the most loving people they can because of whatever beliefs they have. Because 'religion' and 'religious people' can often be, you know, twats. |
Yes, I know the whole issue of morals and ethics is where my system breaks down, and I really need to think more about it before I can form any kind of opinion in that regard. In response to your unrelated thing: yeah.  |
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Izzhov
is not something that you just dump something on
Joined: 05 Oct 2007
Posts: 5543
Location: Meaningless Island
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| Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Tommy wrote: | Actually I'm starting to regret posting again as I don't like arguing. I mean there's so many ways it can go. For example: you might say "Aha! You're tired of arguing because you don't have a proper answer!" and I'd say "No, because this post right now proves that I don't just quit when I can't think of anything as it was written in a moment of non-arguing." and you could say "Well, that was just a crafty pre-emptive strike." etc. etc.
Because of my personality I don't like my view to go un-defended but neither does the other person so arguments can go on forever. I'm tired. |
Hey, I just thought of something: is this a reference to the book Angels and Demons, by Dan Brown? |
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dPaladin
is rapidly attaining fiery deathytude
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 1706
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| Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 11:37 pm Post subject: |
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I read that book when it was pretty new and I don't remember what you're talking about. I read all of Dan Brown's stuff, actually, then later I was like, "Man, his writing style sucked really badly."
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dude look at this signature |
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Izzhov
is not something that you just dump something on
Joined: 05 Oct 2007
Posts: 5543
Location: Meaningless Island
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| Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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| dPaladin wrote: | | I read that book when it was pretty new and I don't remember what you're talking about. I read all of Dan Brown's stuff, actually, then later I was like, "Man, his writing style sucked really badly." |
Yeah, I didn't like it either, but I just remember the "I'm tired" part from this passage:
| Angels & Demons by Dan Brown wrote: | | "To science, I say this. The church is tired. We are exhausted from trying to be your signposts. Our resources are drying up from our campaign to be the voice of balance as you plow blindly on in your quest for smaller chips and larger profits. We ask not why you will not govern yourselves, but how can you? Your world moves so fast that if you stop even for an instant to consider the implications of your actions, someone more efficient will whip past you in a blur. So you move on. You proliferate weapons of mass destruction, but it is the Pope who travels the world beseeching leaders to use restraint. You clone living creatures, but it is the church reminding us to consider the moral implications of our actions. You encourage people to interact on phones, video screens, and computers, but it is the church who opens its doors and reminds us to commune in person as we were meant to do. You even murder unborn babies in the name of research that will save lives. Again, it is the church who points out the fallacy of this reasoning. "And all the while, you proclaim the church is ignorant. But who is more ignorant? The man who cannot define lightning, or the man who does not respect its awesome power? This church is reaching out to you. Reaching out to everyone. And yet the more we reach, the more you push us away. Show me proof there is a God, you say. I say use your telescopes to look to the heavens, and tell me how there could not be a God!" |
I dunno. It's far-fetched that Tommy was actually referencing that, it's just that he made me think of it. |
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Tommy
is rapidly attaining fiery deathytude
Joined: 27 Jun 2007
Posts: 1595
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 3:14 am Post subject: |
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I've never read that book.
Anyway, couldn't the meaning of life simply be VIDEOGAMES?
Either that or finding something you're willing to give up your life to protect.
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Young men, you're getting detention for being without shorts
I know who's actually to blame, but we need those guys for sports. |
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chzrm3
Awesomeness Level = "Dibnah"
Joined: 27 Jun 2007
Posts: 2250
Location: Felucia
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| Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 1:10 pm Post subject: PUBIC HAIRS now that I have your attention.... |
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PUBIC HAIRS!!!!
Now that I have your attention, topic treasury?
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[quote="Someone's sig on the AoC forums"]THis game really is more geared towards the adult then, teenbeat wow. This mmo makes u think, somthing a teenager hates to do. -Skopas, eloquently discussing how grown up AoC is.
No read comprehension is not your strong point so I'll you a picture for you. -ubeenhad, just before he a picture for me[/quote]
[quote="Wormy"]I wish I could supply, as everyone else as, good news regarding my love life but sadly not as I am currently shagging a fat girl until I find someone better. [/quote] |
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Damian
Honorary Fruitcake Flunkie
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 2424
Location: In the clouds.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 1:58 pm Post subject: Re: PUBIC HAIRS now that I have your attention.... |
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| chzrm3 wrote: | | topic treasury |
Indeed, since no one seemed to notice the, you know, topic treasury thread. ;p
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when the world is sick, can't no one be well? but i dreamt we was all beautiful and strong
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Izzhov
is not something that you just dump something on
Joined: 05 Oct 2007
Posts: 5543
Location: Meaningless Island
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| Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Tommy wrote: | Anyway, couldn't the meaning of life simply be VIDEOGAMES?
Either that or finding something you're willing to give up your life to protect. |
Aren't those two definitions synonymous...?
| chzrm3 wrote: | PUBIC HAIRS!!!!
Now that I have your attention, topic treasury? |
If Cheese Monkey decides not to treasure this topic out of spite because you said that, I will be very upset with you, chzrm3... 
But yeah. Topic Treasury.
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